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This is an impressive and coherent narrative of the territories and the events surrounded the time that Thingol ruled in Doriath in particular. I like the way you've colored the maps--a big deal for me with my vision issues! Thanks!

I am unable to discuss a lot of the points you make on one read only. A few things leap out at me that I would like to raise. It will be a big job to get all of my ducks lined up in order to start raising issues or asking questions.

This is a very useful reference to have, for its organization of a wealth of details and complicated chronology. It can be very difficult to try to hop into the texts and pull out the bit and pieces one needs.

I do have some bones to pick (of course, I do!). I will have to come back sooner rather than later with those. As you said to me recently--remind me if I forget!

Meanwhile, congratulations on a lovely piece of work and one which I do believe will be a resource for me and many others.

I'm back! Terrific essay, I couldn't stop thinking about it.

First, these are friendly points. It is a credit to your essay that I want to engage and split a few hairs with you over some conclusions. One point I would raise is that while Thingol does indeed seek to protect those of his people included within the Girdle of Melian, he often does so to the disadvantage of those outside of it. As a reader, I find it an unattractive form of isolationism. For example, he is perfectly willing to use the Other (be it Dwarf, Nandor, those cursed Noldor, or the Edain) as the first line of defense against the enemy. So it is not only the problematic Noldor--by his judgment untrustworthy kinslayers--that he is willing to place as a living barrier between the bad world outside and those sheltering within the bounds of the Girdle of Melian. A couple of examples:

1) Denethor and the Nandor suffered terrible losses as Thingol's cannon fodder in Thingol's one and only battle against the forces of Morgoth fought shortly before the Noldor arrive:

But the victory of the Elves was dear-bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him, before the host of Thingol could come to his aid. ["Of the Sindar"]

2) Thingol’s response when he first heard of the coming of Men from the east was that he wanted nothing at all to do with them! But later when Finrod explained the hardship of the people of Haleth Thingol reluctantly agreed to allow her people to settle in land which he claimed but outside of the Girdle of Melian.

Now Brethil was claimed as part of his realm by King Thingol, though it was not within the Girdle of Melian, and he would have denied it to Haleth; but Felagund, who had the friendship of Thingol, hearing of all that had befallen the People of Haleth, obtained this grace for her: that she should dwell free in Brethil, upon the condition only that her people should guard the Crossings of Teiglin against all enemies of the Eldar, and allow no Orcs to enter their woods. To this Haleth answered: ‘Where are Haldad my father, and Haldar my brother? If the King of Doriath fears a friendship between Haleth and those have devoured her kin, then the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to Men.’

The point I am trying to make in too many words was that Thingol was no nature’s nobleman! He sheltered his own and kept others outside of his enchanted circle, but was not unwilling to use them.

Another nitpicky point, based upon logical assumptions (too lazy to do more). I would assert that the ban of Quenya was not entirely successful. We know there were a lot of Sindar living outside of the Girdle of Melian and that the Noldor encountered Sindar around Lake Mithrim and entered into relationships with them. Sindar followed Turgon to Nevrast and from there to Gondolin. Every Noldorin community more likely than not included Sindar. If that had not been the case, the ban on the use of Quenya would have been completely toothless.  

But I suspect the hooked-on-knowledge Noldor were already busy learning these peoples’ dialects of Sindar before Thingol declared Sindar-only! Nevertheless, the ban was spotty in its enforcement also, because we know people continued to speak it. At Unnumbered Tears, Fingon shouts: “‘Utúlie’n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie’n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!’” And was understood: “all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: ‘Auta i lómë! The night is passing!’” Later in the day, “each time that he slew Húrin cried: ‘Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!’ Seventy times he uttered that cry.”

Thingol did not succeed in wiping out the language. We know it survived into Third Age Gondor as a scholarly language (Elf-Latin). Aragorn uses it at his coronation: "Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!" "Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world." One can easily imagine that the ever beloved scholar-warrior-hero of LotR Faramir enjoyed reading history and poetry in Quenya. I bet the libraries of Rivendell and Minas Tirith were filled with books in Quenya.

I do not disagree that Thingol must have been a justifiably respected leader and largely a good one. Until the Silmaril caught his eye! But he should have been less xenophobia and nicer to Dwarves and Men. He should have taken his wife’s advice more. Like most major figures in The Silmarillion he is a tragic figure more than an evil or stupid one and like most Silm characters is flawed.

Thanks again for sharing such a rich collection of material and making so much scattered information readily available.

No worries, I try not to take debate personally without indications it's meant that way, and you'd get benefit of the doubt in any case! Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed comment!

I wouldn't call Thingol isolationist so much as overly cautious. (If you want isolationist, see Turgon, who was apparently willing to kill to enforce the secrecy of his kingdom.) As king of the Sindar, his primary responsibility was to the Sindar, not to 'everyone'. (That would be the Valar, who aside from Ulmo do not seem to have been doing much to help the Children.) Once it becomes obvious that Morgoth has orcs (who may in fact be former elves, possibly even elves known to the people they are now attacking), caution about any newcomers in the First Age makes unfortunate sense. While generosity to incoming groups, elves, Men, or dwarves usually works out in the Silmarillion, the Fëanorions do get burned at a key moment by an incoming group who turned out to be allied with Morgoth. As such, distasteful though you may find it, using non-Sindarin groups as buffers makes perfect sense and is sound strategy.

It's only speculation either way, but I think Denethor was less a case of intentional cannon fodder than unfortunate circumstances. Thingol either did not realize or did not have time to rectify the Nandor's lack of effective weaponry, and it was the first time the elves had done battle, so both Thingol and Denethor are untested militarily at that point. (They may have fought skirmishes, but not a large scale battle. You can take personal command of a skirmish, but coordinating a large battle is another level.) Bear in mind also that unlike the Noldor, Thingol welcomed Denethor and his people as kin, recognizing them as fellow Teleri. I'd also point out that unlike the later Noldor, the Nandor settled in Ossiriand - not much of a trip wire for an enemy in the north. Taken together, I'd argue the Nandor were not in the 'Other' category to Thingol, they were part of the 'Us'. Denethor's fate was Dunkirk without the nick of time rescue- an ally who came to help but was outmatched, not indifference to their casualties on Thingol's part. 

Thingol's response to Men is of a piece with his treatment of the Noldor - he's cautious about all non-kin newcomers in the First Age. That's sensible - he's king of the Sindar, his primary responsibility is to his own people. Using others to shield his own people is solid strategy on his part. His primary goal isn't 'protect everyone', it's 'protect the people I'm responsible for'. You may dislike it, but he does not have a greater responsibility to others than to his own people, and with the Noldor in particular suspicion is warranted given that they have already slain Teleri once to get what they wanted.

As far as Quenya goes, Gondolin may have gotten away with ignoring the Ban on account of being hidden, and possibly Turgon removing his people from Nevrast before Thingol handed down the band. (The timeline is contradictory, and I wanted to duck that argument!) I would say that the Noldor may well have considered Unnumbered Tears to be 'the lords of the Noldor among themselves', given that Thingol took no part and only allowed Mablung and Beleg to attend. They would likely have been with either the elves of the Falas (who are by this time a mixed population, with both Noldor and Sindar/Teleri) or the company from Nargothrond. Two Iathrim on their own are in no position to quibble about language in the middle of a major battle, much less shun the entire rest of the army, starting with its commander! But in general, your point about the Sindar being intermixed with the Noldor is precisely why the Ban worked - with Sindar intermixed, word would inevitably get back to Doriath of Noldor ignoring the Ban, proclaiming them kinslayers and/or betrayers.

If you're asserting the Ban wasn't successful, you're arguing with the text, not me:

And it came to pass even as Thingol had spoken; for the Sindar heard his word, and thereafter throughout Beleriand they refused the tongue of the Noldor, and shunned those that spoke it aloud; but the Exiles took the Sindarin tongue in all their daily uses, and the High Speech of the West was spoken only by the lords of the Noldor among themselves. Yet that speech lived ever as a language of lore, wherever any of that people dwelt. (Of the Noldor In Beleriand)

A language of lore, or scholarly language as you put it, is no longer a living language. There are still libraries full of ancient Greek and Latin texts, but that doesn't mean it's anyone's cradle tongue or still spoken by more than a handful of highly educated people. Aragorn was quoting - showing his education as well as emphasizing a link with Gondor's storied history at the outset of the new era. (Moreover, he was quoting a Numenorean, and I'd point out that in Numenor, Quenya would have been used as a living language by elvish visitors from Aman - I feel like Quenya in Numenor is a whole 'nother essay.) Thingol may not have killed Quenya in Middle-earth completely, but he certainly put it on life-support.

A careful reading that makes very good points! It is too easy to overlook Thingol's strengths in the light of his unfortunate dealings with the Silmaril.

After all, he is the leader who was beloved enough by his followers that many of them stayed behind for his sake in Beleriand, an unknown country, for an indefinite period; otherwise there would be no Sindar.

As you say, he also does get on well with the Dwarves at first (apart from that issue of the Petty Dwarves, which isn't linked to him personally). I had forgotten that the Dwarves enter the fight, during the battle in which Denethor falls, until a fic by Brooke reminded me.

I agree with Oshun that the language ban probably worked as well as it did, because the Noldor were already largely using Sindarin, especially in communicating with Sindar and perhaps even amongst themselves (there are hints of this in the description of the Mereth Aderthad, I think). But that Thingol comes up with such an idea does seem to show how he has a tendency to think of himself as the king of the Sindar or even of Doriath only rather than the somewhat wider perspective we might expect from someone who used to be Elwe.

 

Thanks!

Yes, the same thing applies to Thingol as I've occasionally argued for Fëanor: if he was as bad as his worst moments all the time, his people wouldn't have loved him enough to want to follow him - or in this case, to want to stay until he was found.

The Noldor had definitely been learning Sindarin, but I'm skeptical the Noldor would have been speaking Sindarin among themselves prior to the ban, with the exception of using Sindarin place names and loanwords for concepts they learned from the Sindar. Thingol's perception of himself as king of the Sindar seems correct to me. The Noldor have their own High King, and while Thingol claims lordship of Beleriand, he never claims to be their king.

 

Thanks! I tried to be as clear as possible about how I came up with the areas I did, but there's a lot of inference and guesswork involved. Not only is what you say about lack of clear-cut borders correct, there's also just a lack of mention of a lot of the realms in the text- Amras and Amrod's territory, for example, is mentioned maybe twice, both times in passing, not in detail. Even Cirdan's Falas only comes up a handful of times. 

I kind of wonder who, out of the entire Silm, is not a tragic figure...

Thingol, Thingol. I think he is a victim of simply being the best when no one, except his people, acknowledged that. Besides, there is no other High King of the Sindar in Beleriand, not even Dior, who technically was one, but hey...

Very, very good job! I'm a Thingol fan with the bones and am always glad when someone wants to explain his ways.

Greatly done!

OMG! I am back! Sorry I did not respond sooner to your excellent rebuttal.

Great arguments. I concede the debate, but subjectively am not giving up many of my deeply held prejudices (seriously! I am a hot mess of a Noldor-lover)! Still, I think he shot himself in the foot (if not worse) for not sending help to Unnumbered Tears.

One point on the language-ban again to reiterate where I am coming from and not necessarily to change your mind. If one considers it a victory, I still see it as a somewhat of an empty one. The Noldor were quick to learn Sindarin and as I interpret the texts renamed themselves with Sindarin out of linguistic fastidiousness and not any ruling by Thingol. I drew this conclusion (perhaps mistakenly, from The Shibboleth):

The changes from the Quenya names of the Noldor to Sindarin forms when they settled in Beleriand in Middle-earth were, on the other hand, artificial and deliberate. They were made by the Noldor themselves. This was done because of the sensitiveness of the Eldar to languages and their styles. They felt it absurd and distasteful to call living persons who spoke Sindarin in daily life by names in quite a different linguistic mode. The Noldor of course fully understood the style and mode of Sindarin, though their learning of this difficult language was swift.

It is more usual for a conquered/invaded people to continue to speak their own language (as in the case of Anglo-Saxon continuing to be the dominant language even during the 300 years or so when the invaders/new privileged classes continued to use Anglo-Norman/Anglo-French). In the end the English language persisted and replaced French.  In other words, Sindarin was the language which would have persisted with or without any ban.

Using one's own people as cannon fodder is not that uncommon and, I might note, not with malicious intent, but I would say criminal carelessness and/or bad planning. I read a very good book about the effect of WWI on Tolkien’s writing—John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War. I would recommend for an insight into the trauma for Tolkien of loss of lives of his generation, particularly in the Battle of the Somme. He was to lose his intimate friends and collaborators—they did not go to war out of patriotic fervor, but because young men of his age joined up or were subject to scorn. His country lost a significant proportion of a generation. Tolkien personally was left alone. He wrote in a letter to his son later in life: “By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead.” This casualty rate resulted from blunder after blunder: “victory but at what cost” has never been a more fitting description. I cannot but believe that Tolkien’s accounts of the First War of Beleriand, the initial charge in the Unnumbered Tears, and the loss of lives in the Battle of Dagorlad, and the Dead Marshes in LotR. The horrors of the Battle of the Somme formed a part of his psyche that permeates his work. When he writes of battles they often echo elements of that formative period of his life; he does not imply those were acceptable losses or based upon reasonable expectations. They and the result was horror. I place blame on Thingol and his reliance upon Denethor’s forces the same way I blame the civilian and military leaders for the blunders in the Somme and resulting loss of lives (not to mention it was a squabble among imperialists over a larger piece of the pie, but that is whole other discussion and not part of the history of Middle-earth!). I am a far more political person than Tolkien so no doubt I judge Thingol more harshly. I can’t just say, OK, dude, you did the best with what you had. The lesson Thingol drew from the experience was hunker down and save the few you can.

Anyway, back to my initial response—great references, well-argued, and the essay will be a useful tool for me.

No worries. If you like, we can move this over to DW so threaded discussion will be possible. I feel like we may keep going rounds on this for a while. :)

I'm not claiming the language ban was a victory for Thingol, only that it was a demonstration of power - the same power the Fëanorions had earlier scoffed that he didn't have. I'm not sure why you think that Noldorin would have naturally died out. I don't read the Noldor as conqeurors in the mode of the Normans in England, but as an incoming group living/interacting with a pre-existing group. Without the Ban, there would have been no pressure on Noldorin. (Well, aside from the declining population of the Noldor...that was going to happen either way.) The two languages could have been spoken side-by-side indefinitely, in the way that regions like Belgium or Finland have more than one language, or historically the Czech Republic, and what is now western Poland had multiple languages. 

I still maintain there's no evidence that Thingol was using Denethor's people, as cannon fodder. To compare the first battles in Beleriand to the Somme is bad analogy to the point of insult - Haig & co. had been at war for a year and half by the time they got that bright idea and knew full well what they were committing to when they drew up their battle plans. Furthermore, they had a ready gauge for casualty projections in Verdun, which stood at a quarter of a million casualties on the French side by the time the Somme commenced. By contrast, Thingol and Denethor had some control as far as choosing the ground for their response to Morgoth's invasion, but they couldn't delay their response unless they were willing to risk being pushed to worse positions, and they had to defend with what they had - again, for emphasis, *with no previous battle experience*. WWI certainly informs Tolkien's writing, but if you're looking for a WWI analogy for this case, you have to look at the initial battles of the war, not the Somme. Even then, it's an imperfect analogy, given that warfare was not something entirely new in Europe when WWI started, and many military tactics and weaponry used in that war had precursors that were observed in wars elsewhere (notably trench warfare and machine guns.) But large scale warfare was completely new to Beleriand, meaning Thingol, Denethor, and Cirdan - and every elf under their command - were green as spring leaves. I'm plenty political, but I don't see how you can reasonably expect Thingol to do much better than he did against an opponent that outmatched him, Denethor, and Cirdan (and even Melian) combined. If you're going to place blame, what do you feel were Thingol's realistic alternatives? 

I have Tolkien and the Great War on ILL request at my library, hoping it comes in soon - I know a libarary in the next county who are usually quick responding to requests have it. With luck, I'll get it in the next week or two!